Chocoboo
04/17/13 06:39AM
Isn't Homestuck a celebration and a mockery of Death of The Author?
Pie
04/17/13 07:34AM
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=008142


This is not enough Dead Authors.


I require more.
Nyre
04/17/13 06:49PM
The only issue I have with that ideology is that opening the interpretation to everyone makes a person's own subjective feelings about a piece the most important interpretation... too them.

This can cause a lot of fights. :U
Pie
04/17/13 07:19PM
Everything causes fights. Calling characters that other people identify with closely expendable and worthless due solely on their role in canon, is by extension probably going to make a lot of those people feel expendable and worthless. That's probably going to set off a few sparks. This is the internet, it's not like anything is going to not start fights. People start fights for fun.

When people call a character "useless", they are pretty much saying that characters, fictional sure, but still individuals, are there simply to be used. And frankly Hussie does treat many of his characters in that way (don't get me started on the dream ghosts let alone the main characters). Which is flawed and messed up and not a way of thinking I want to have to follow simply because Hussie does. I don't think he realized how great he made some of his characters he doesn't give a crap about. People identify strongly with them, and when he throws them away and gives other people justification to throw them away too, it's like he's stepping on all of those people as well.

I've been to blogs of people who strongly identify with Equius and get / got really upset with his treatment as a character, because yeah sure it may sound silly to those who don't identify and can't really understand but particularly with a cast of characters as wonderful as found in Homestuck it's hard not to lose your heart. Hard not to get really entwined, and therefore hard to separate.

I know he made the cast too big, I know he doesn't have the time or energy or desire to care about them all equally. But it bugs me. It really bugs me how carelessly people throw characters away. It's not about liking them, that's everyone's right to pick who you care about and don't care about. But everyone has worth. Whether Hussie cared to show it to us or not.

Homestuck is a pretty great example of the fact that writers are human beings, and therefore are flawed as are their narrations. I simply don't believe in blindly following one person's flawed logic over my own even if they are the creator of the narration. Obviously I don't just throw canon out of the window when making observations or analysis of the story but in terms of worth? Yeah I'm not buying that noise.

Buuuuuut that's just me.

I can hear other people's opinions, I can believe this way and be rational and understanding. It's not like believing in my own interpretation makes me closed off to others. Some people are like that because some people are idiots. Having my own thoughts doesn't mean I can't think and hear other people's.

But people definitely use canon to start just as many fights if not more so like... there's no stopping wank either way.


Also guess I should point out I didn't mean to jump on Nyre or anyone else, it's just this is the "bitch about Homestuck" thread so I guess I'd let it out here. I'm more irked at Hussie then anything because yeah he does feed a lot of that mentality, the joke characters, the perpetual butt monkeys, and so on and so forth. So it's not like I can rationally get mad at people for thinking that way when they've definitely had enough fuel to...

Everyone has worth though. I really feel that way. Jane could do nothing for the entire comic and she has worth as an individual with feelings, and dreams, and all the hope and desires her little fictional body can hold.

I wish he had tried harder to get that point across.
Nyre
04/17/13 08:34PM
The question that comes to my mind, reading that, is to what extent are these characters people? Are they embodiments of fictious beings or are they concepts and ideas? I understand when people look at characterizations as representations of people, because in many ways that's what they are intended to be. The extent to which a person is believable has to do with both how much a reader can identify qualities and traits of a specific character within people that they have known/seen/experienced and also to what extent they can believe a person to be real.

Personally, I am from the "characters as ideas" camp -- until I grow an attachment to them. This is probably more distant from treating individual characters as people, but it also places a bit more burden of believability onto the author. Since the characters themselves are constructs of the author's imagination, he/she needs to convey to me that this character has these thoughts, hopes, and dreams. Until they do, then they remain flat static images in the background -- no more or less descriptive than the scenery or a rather effective pulley.

It is the person's ability to identify with a character that makes them real and relevant. I suppose when I say "a character is worthless" in this instance what I am saying is "I really don't see the point of their being here." This is a perfectly valid thing to say and, like most anything, can be questioned about any number of characters in the series. John is an adorable dork, but honestly, his contributions to the game as a whole have been pretty minimal. So, if somebody were to say that John is worthless, and expresses that their relevance hasn't been as pronounced as some of the other characters in the story, then I would be compelled to honor that assertion (though I would not believe it myself).

This, once again, goes into the whole issue of how the story has been played out. Since there are so many characters being thrown about, the issue is to what extent Hussie can make them relevant and different enough that we are able to say they are their own unique person. I think in this regard, Hussie falls short. If you take a look at even the characterizations of the Beta kids before Act 5's introduction of the trolls, they had a much wider range of quirks, mannerisms, and personalities. John? He can be an introspective, thoughtless JERK. He completely missed the point of Dad's coddlelings and was not able to appreciate it until he was dead. Rose could be viewed as a thoughtful and sensitive girl who was shoving away real relationships because she was afraid to be hurt (Rose is a weird case because who the fuck knows what's going on with that girl). Dave was facing his own insecurities and genuine belief that he wasn't as cool as he thought he was. And Jade was manic. So. Seriously manic that she was borderiing on being just a bottle of positivity, as opposed to a real person -- she's one of the few characters I believe actually got more realistic as a result of what happens in Act 5, though the loss of her positive energy is definitely missed. But I also feel that Hussie has trouble portraying genuinely positive and happy characters in general...

But as more characters are introduced, their relevance relevance gets strained. It's a matter of practicality. And just as much as a person can say that a character was relevant, so too should they be able to say that a character is not. If we take a look at characters as people. This notion is heartless. If they are ideas, it's a bit more distant. I have to consider many of the Homestuck character ideas, because as the cast has thinned out their personalities to the extent that it has, they become less real to me.
Snuffleheim
04/17/13 09:49PM
And a minor point to quibble with... nobody in this thread called any character "useless". I'm not sure anyone sees them entirely as things to be used.
Mr_Ruse
04/18/13 07:59AM
It is not updating.

That is what is wrong.
Snuffleheim
04/18/13 10:32AM
^I appreciate it, but... Somebody already beat you to the punch(line).

Rohandrius said:
What's wrong with homestuck? It's on hiatus.
Chocoboo
04/22/13 01:42AM
You know, I've been thinking. Would Homestuck been better if it just been centered on the four original kids and the game and their interactions with the exiles? In this hypothetical scenario Jack is still the big bag and there wouldn't be any LE that would replace him in that role. The exiles would be the ones who would constantly communicate with the kids instead of the trolls and we would get detailed backstories on them and their problems. They would act as mentors to the kids(as I assumed they originally intended to be) while each group solve each other's personal problems while learning more about the world of Sburb in general.

The comic may or may not end up with a smaller audience, but their is a chance that you would end up with a tighter woven up story where hardly any character is neglected.

The trolls themselves would have been better off in a more fleshed out prequel or some alternative sequel of Homestuck that detailed their world and alien lives before and during the game and characters who are considered to be "jokes" or "plot devices" would be given more development because, again, of the advantage of having a smaller cast.

What do you guys think?
Snuffleheim
04/22/13 08:47AM
I'm fairly certain that LE would have worked his way in somehow. But yeah, much as I love the trolls, I think it would have gone more smoothly if they hadn't gotten half an act to themselves. There is, as you suggested, the fact that a more deliberately-paced delivery of a smaller amount of absolutely necessary details might be more satisfying (with the possibility of them getting their own thing where they're better fleshed out being a cool, but not absolutely necessary one) but there's also another thing to consider: where would the freed-up screentime have gone? To the alpha kids, allowing their part of the story and their possible relationships with the betas much more fleshed out and satisfying. This focus would allow more parallels and differences between the two sets of kids to come out, which would have made them and the story as a whole more interesting.
Chocoboo
04/28/13 12:11PM
Another set of questions, addressed to everybody: do you think Homestuck will actually end this year? And if you said yes, do you really believe that the ending would be satisfactory?
NothingSpecial
04/28/13 03:08PM
Chocoboo said:
do you think Homestuck will actually end this year?do you really believe that the ending would be satisfactory?
I will see it somehow pleasant if it will.
Chocoboo said:
do you really believe that the ending would be satisfactory?
Of course.
post #87686
Chocoboo
04/29/13 01:52AM
NothingSpecial said:
Chocoboo said:
do you think Homestuck will actually end this year?do you really believe that the ending would be satisfactory?
I will see it somehow pleasant if it will.


Even after all the criticisms the folks in this thread laid out against Homestuck?

I feel like there are several unanswered plot points in the story and judging how Hussie frequently misjudge how long it takes a story to finish, I highly doubt the comic will end this year--well if a good ending is to be expected.

I mean Hussie originally planned for Homestuck to end 3 years ago.
Snuffleheim
04/29/13 06:06AM
I think it could end this year and end relatively well, but it's way too early to tell for sure.
NothingSpecial
04/29/13 02:45PM
Chocoboo said:
Even after all the criticisms the folks in this thread laid out against Homestuck?
Yep. I belong to that crazy sort of people who like to have questions unanswered - because it makes all the theories pawssible!

And I really really hope for problemsleutesque end in terms of spirit.

I'm such a child.
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