12/28/12 04:56AM
This photo finally tore it for me:

I've talked about it with other Homestucks before, but what is even the deal with Feferi. Is it just me, or is she the only one of the original 12 trolls to not really be developed AT ALL?

Does anyone else find this extremely WEIRD? Nepeta, Equius, even most of the Beforus trolls, introduced thousands of pages later, are more developed than she is. It's not like Hussie had too many characters and couldn't afford to flesh one more out. The whole scenario just doesn't make sense. Why the ambiguity? Of the 12 original troll heroes, why only her?


Idk. That article makes some good points.
12/28/12 05:52AM
Wow that second photo has a lot of text. That's gonna take a lot of reading.

Also, I don't think Nepeta actually had any more development than Feferi? (Not sure about Equius.) Kanaya pretty much doesn't have any development either, come to think of it.
12/28/12 06:04AM
Just finished that wall of text - a very interesting read! I might go over it a few more times to make sure I get everything there... by the way, do you have the source on the photo?
12/28/12 06:47AM
These are my opinions on her:

I've thought she was one dimensional. Just never brought it up because of her rabid fans, ya know?

But then again, she DID create the dream bubbles, which so far have proved to a fairly major plot point with Calliope and such. But yes, she is under-developed.

She could have been so much more, but sadly, Hussie just sorta left her out. Which led to the fandom to create their OWN personality for her. Which eventually became a rather warped Mary Sue, which you either love or hate.

But then again, what the hell do I know? Have your own opinions, pals.
12/28/12 08:20AM
Feferi was unfortunately rather half baked as a character to me, the keyword being unfortunate because she did have a ton of potential and did do some really important things plotwise that could have been expanded on a lot. Hussie did not evenly distribute comic time amongst the trolls whatsoever. I'm not even sure he tried.

Hussie flat out said he made Meenah so awesome as almost an apology to Pieces readers (haha fuck you though Aquariuses he still hates you apparently).

She does kinda get Mary Sue'd in fandom too just because there was so little to canonly work from.

I like Feferi despite all that though. She's near the bottom of my troll list just really by proxy of me liking most everyone else better, but it's not really her fault Hussie chose to spend the lions share of time on other trolls. I hope she comes back. I hope she ends up happy. She's a good kid who made mistakes like everyone else in the comic.

And yeah Nepeta's popularity is surprising to even Hussie. I remember reading something along the lines of her intense fanbase being pretty surprising to him.

Kanaya has a lot more development then people give her credit for though, they just kind of... compress her a lot.
12/28/12 09:06AM
Kanaya doesn't really have a lot of development though? She hasn't changed since when she was first introduced, and most of the things she does are in reaction to other things, and her very little development she got was being helped by others, such as with Porrim helping her with the matriorb. There was also some wasted potential with her, such as aucipitising [sic?] between Gamzee and Terezi - since she is the "two-wheel village device" for aucipitism after all - but instead Rose steals the place, when it would make a lot more sense for Kanaya to do it.

Fandom definitely doesn't help by butchering her character and stuffing her in the "designated lesbians" slot along with Rose. Most of them also forget most of her interactions with people other than Rose, Vriska or Karkat - like with Meenah, Dave and Sollux (the latter one strikes me as a little weird that people would miss it tbh).

I will say I do actually like Kanaya, I just don't like how she always gets the short end of the stick and very little development. (She is also fun to draw)
12/28/12 09:08AM
The deal with Kanaya is that most of her development is shown in her interaction with Rose. She has small little interactions with the trolls that end up making huge impact, but she's not really developed at all by them. As a result I found myself thinking Kanaya was pretty boring pre-meteor.

Feferi's death probably had the least impact to me out of anyone. She just kind of deserved it and I didn't feel like she had been cheated out of anything. Similarly I felt bad for Sollux for getting the worst rebound troll action and being thrust into a blackrom with Eridan as a consequence.
12/28/12 09:19AM
^ Yeah, what I mean about Kanaya being incredibly dependent. Her very little development mainly centers on other characters, she hardly ever develops on her own. I'd be more inclined to like her more if she was more independent, but she's not.

Sollux for getting the worst rebound troll action and being thrust into a blackrom with Eridan as a consequence.

Wait, what? IIRC Sollux<3<Eridan never happened in canon, it was Eridan just pressuring Sollux about it in Kanaya: Return to the Core.

I seriously need to re-read Homestuck, I'm so out of date on some things.
12/28/12 09:22AM
SpitfireSpirit said:
Why the ambiguity?

I think it's because her biggest plot connection in the comic is also one of the most mysterious things in the comic, the horrorterrors. The tumblr article you linked brings up her strange inconsistent behavior in regards to how she values life, (especially considering her aspect), so maybe her strong relations with the horrorterrors and the creation of dreambubbles has warped her views on how she should go about it, worsening as the session progressed (as the tumblr article said, despite supposedly accepting Karkat as leader, she ignored his advice on sleeping because she wanted to talk to the horrorterrors more, which as we've seen didn't turn out so well for Rose's mental state).

As Pie said in the comments of that image you linked to, "Feferi really has it in her to be a lot more terrifying than people give her credit for." I think that she's a lot easier at concealing how screwed up she is/has become compared to the other trolls by putting on a happy appearance, but her other self occasionally manifests in the form of her bitchy moments to Jade and Vriska and callousness about Sollux's feelings on Aradia. If any of those moments was an isolated incident, I'd pass it off as coming out of left field like in the tumblr article, but I think it'll lead into something when Hussie is ready to deal with the horrorterrors more. The article also mentions how she stood back and did a hissy fit routine while Sollux and Eridan fought and her inability to help Karkat keep the peace, which I think both could have been manipulative acts as she wanted more dead trolls. Hell, maybe she also acted angry at Eridan so he would kill her so she could have a better connection with the horrorterrors. /my scaryferi fanfic

I'm going to wait until the end of the comic before I pass off Feferi as a weak underused character. I don't think many people were expecting HIC to get any of the characterization she has so far, so there's probably still hope for Feferi.
12/28/12 09:25AM
I always felt the most interesting thing about Kanaya was the pressure that protecting the Matriorb put on her and her reactions to failing to protect it. I was happy to see her getting back into the idea of re-making it because quite honestly that was always my favorite Kanaya story line and one I would like to see more story time given to. I mean, yeah Porrim is helping but I don't see how that means Kanaya can't grow from the story line... the Matriorb being destroyed obviously impacted her, it stands to reason it being recreated would too.

But yeah she definitely does get shoehorned into very narrow relation paths by the fandom largely and sometimes even by Hussie. In fairness though the fandom seems quite content to just make her the lesbian who killed Eridan / wanted to kill Gamzee, so maybe he feels he doesn't need to do much else for the time being, people are pretty satisfied with that it seems.

(sorry for thread derailment, this is about Fef after all)

I wouldn't say Feferi deserved her death, but she wasn't blameless and flawless and squeaky clean in it all either. I'll never blame Feferi for what happened, I don't even really blame Eridan though I definitely hold him accountable for what he did.

Anyone who doesn't see the whole situation as a really tragic unfolding of a sick relationship by sick children isn't on the same page as me I guess (thought the scaryferi theory up there is indeed interesting... I don't think Feferi is evil but horrorterrors can definitely have an effect on a person as we've seen).

But yeah. There are definitely... main trolls, and the rest of em. That doesn't mean the ones Hussie didn't lavish obscene amounts of attention on aren't amazing though. I'm of the opinion they are all lovely and lovable. But that's just me.

Timeghoul is right though, you can't write anyone in HS off. I hope she comes back and does some cool stuff.
12/28/12 02:01PM
honeycomet said:
There was also some wasted potential with her, such as aucipitising [sic?] between Gamzee and Terezi - since she is the "two-wheel village device" for aucipitism after all - but instead Rose steals the place, when it would make a lot more sense for Kanaya to do it.

I'm just gonna sneak in this brief little observation before I write a post complaining about Feferi: I don't think Kanaya would have been a good choice for auspistice between Terezi and Gamzee, at all. She still hates Gamzee with a platonic yet murderous loathing, and I'm pretty sure the auspistice is supposed to maintain a relatively balanced attitude toward the two auspees. I dunno if that was stated anywhere but it's just common sense, right? Kanaya's "auspisticizing" between Terezi and Gamzee would more likely consist of "enlisting Terezi as an accomplice to help Kanaya track down and slaughter Gamzee".
12/28/12 02:23PM
But anyway Feferi, whom I really don't like. I'm not gonna say "hate", but man, I got no love for her at all. I dislike Feferi because of a certain irritating trend in hetero troll shipping, which to my view she embodies (having more or less codified it via her relationships with Eridan and Sollux). That trend is that when a guy troll and a girl troll are shipped, the girl troll will be depicted as happy/eager/perky while the guy troll will be depicted as grumpy/retreating/mopey.

There's obviously nothing wrong with that kind of relationship dynamic, but it's so RIDICULOUSLY PREVALENT in hetero troll shipping that it's really started to get on my nerves. This dynamic, though obviously not exactly the same in every case (since e.g. a happy/eager/perky Terezi is not the same thing as a happy/eager/perky Nepeta), turns up again and again and again in practically every combination of the six female trolls and six male trolls imaginable. The only real exceptions are Gamzee*, some of Tavros**, and (if we want to be generous) Aradiabot***.

Add in gay/lesbian and human-troll pairings and that mixes the paradigm up quite a bit, of course, but it's still frustrating to go through the booru saying "Ah. A hetero troll ship. The girl is clearly into it, and the guy is acting embarrassed and out of touch with his feelings. Ah. Another hetero troll ship. This girl is also clearly into it, while this guy is also acting embarrassed and out of touch with his feelings. Ah. Another hetero troll ship. This girl is most definitely into it, while the guy is acting..."

It's really Hussie's fault for skewing the original twelve trolls' personalities by gender in the first place, resulting in so many chipper girls and grouchy boys (something he would improve with the Beforans, who have at least a somewhat better mix of "up" and "down" personalities, though I'm not saying they're better-written overall). But, even so, I can't help but latch onto Feferi as the flag-bearer for this lousy trend. Would it kill the fanartists to show Sollux or Eridan cheering HER up for a change? Would it be so bad to show her even asking to be cheered up, maybe acknowledging that she has any personal unhappy feelings at all for which she can seek the emotional help of others?

* Who barely gets any hetero shipping at all, compared with the might of PBJ. Nothing wrong with that and I'm not griping about it, but using it to argue that there are very few cases where Gamzee -- definitely the smiliest male troll -- gets paired with a more demure and frowny female troll. A little bit of Kanaya and that's pretty much all.

** Some hetero pairings like Nepeta do bring out Tavros' more cheerful side, but in what's obviously his most popular hetero ship, Tavriska, it's usually the case that Vriska's manic glee totally overwhelms a confused and sullen Tavros. I know that there's some fanart depicting a more mutually happy redrom between them, but it's a minority, and posts like post #72901 that actually reverse the dynamic are extremely thin on the ground.

*** Definitely not living Aradia though. Not in the least.
12/28/12 08:38PM
Gamzee barely got hetero ships because before Gamrezi became a thing, he showed little to no romantic interest in females canonly and his biggest relationships were all with other males (Karkat, Dave to an extent, and yeah Tavros because Tavros is important to Gamzee story wise and the two definitely made each other happier than anyone else).

(though our lack of Gamrezi on here is sad)

Hussie has unfortunately shackled Tavros as a character to Vriska and it is canonly really unhealthy. Any pictures where she really brings out his happy side are rather ooc / pipedream fanart or rare depictions of their time treasure hunting together, as the time where Vriska did anything to make Tavros legitimately happy is pretty far behind us at this point.

(I only really like Tavriska when she's being ooc though so I can relate... it's most of the Tavris I upload.)

So I mean, some of these things do at least have basis in canon which may or may not be a good thing.

I agree though, people completely ignoring that Feferi had feelings beyond perky adorable bubbly cheerful goes back to that kind of Mary Sue fandomization. I'd love to see more exploration of her sad and her mad (particularly her mad beyond Eridan).

It is interesting to think at how much better the girl trolls are at at least masking their unhappiness if nothing else. The boys kind of wear it on their sleeves a lot more.
12/28/12 08:59PM
Yes, I hope I didn't give the impression that I was somehow surprised by the lack of hetero Gamzee art (I'm not) or the nature of most Tavriska art (also not). Both are consequences of canon and neither is a big deal. I just think Hussie messed up in a pretty big way by seemingly defaulting to some flavor of upbeat for every female troll -- except dead Aradia and Aradiabot, but that changed once she came back to life -- and some flavor of downbeat for every male troll except Gamzee and sometimes Tavros.

(Kanaya is the least upbeat of the girls, I'll admit, but she still plays the cheerful nurturing role to Karkat/Sollux's needy grouchiness in "Bloody Maryam" and "Fashion Bee" shipping.)
12/28/12 09:10PM
Well Karkat does have a somewhat similar nurturing role though he does bury it in typical Karkat-y grump and isn't quite so obvious about it as Kanaya is. You almost never see it in hetero ships though, you're right (it's mainly prevalent in Tropicshipping and Sickleback though again those two ships do have canon basis for it)

Tavros is in general a pretty upbeat troll, even with all the shit he takes, but again he's largely been relegated to a toxic relationship in the comic shoving his happiness as an individual to the wayside which is something I take serious issue with myself.

Gonna cut off my rambling here and say that yeah you have a point, and it's pretty much true though you can't really blame the fanartists for drawing in character the majority of the time (excluding someone like Fef who I talked about earlier who gets ooc happy'd a lot)
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